{"id":87562,"date":"2021-11-20T09:59:05","date_gmt":"2021-11-20T14:59:05","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/?p=87562"},"modified":"2021-11-20T09:59:05","modified_gmt":"2021-11-20T14:59:05","slug":"cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/","title":{"rendered":"Cars We Remember; A $3.85-million Mustang GT350-R and tributes, clones and \u2018fakes\u2019 explained"},"content":{"rendered":"

Q: Hi Greg and I\u2019m wondering if you could explain further about an article you wrote back five years ago about your friend\u2019s Pontiac GTO and a few months ago a Mustang GT350? <\/p>\n

Specifically, the owners of the GTO Judge and most recent article in Auto Round-Up Mustang Magazine featuring Scott Shipman\u2019s gorgeous 1965 Mustang GT350 fastback both said their cars were \u201ctributes.\u201d Both of these collector cars don\u2019t have some of the original parts and are non-numbers matching.<\/p>\n

Do you still feel a \u201ctribute\u201d in this hobby basically means fake? For example, someone takes a \u201965 Mustang GT Fastback, paints it white with blue stripes, slaps on Shelby GT350 and everything else that makes it look like a real Shelby. Can they call it a \u201ctribute\u201d or a \u201cclone\u201d car, or non-numbers matching?<\/p>\n

In the Miller\u2019s GTO Judge example, did they take an ordinary \u201969 GTO and slap on the Judge decals and stripes, or is it a real Judge with a non-matching engine or other drive-train parts? If it\u2019s a real Judge, then it\u2019s not a tribute, even with the wrong engine. What exactly is a tribute or clone car? I am sure many of us would appreciate knowing. <\/p>\n

I enjoy your columns very much. Kevin L., email from Spokane, Washington. <\/p>\n

\"Cars<\/a>

John and Nickie Miller, from Wyalusing, Pa., own this gorgeous 1969 Pontiac GTO Judge tribute \/ clone. The Miller\u2019s 1969 GTO Judge shows correct wheels, rear spoiler, side decals and stripes. The paint is outstanding. (Greg Zyla Photo)<\/p><\/div>\n

A: Kevin, thanks much and I\u2019ll be happy to explain. In the case of the Scott Shipman 1965 Mustang GT350 and the Nickie Miller 1969 GTO Judge, both are, according to the vehicle identification numbers (VIN), classified in the tribute category. Both are originally a Mustang GT and a Pontiac GTO, not a GT350 or a Judge. Still, both are excellent examples of the \u201creal deal\u201d vehicles they now represent.  <\/p>\n

Shipman\u2019s Mustang was assembled in the New England area by a master collector car mechanic to be exactly what it is today, and it is a tribute to the most valuable collector car 1965 Shelby Mustang ever built. You can check out what the real Mustang GT\u2019s bring at the Mecum and Barrett Jackson auctions, but the one that takes the top prize is the Ken Miles driven Carroll Shelby first ever 1965 GT350-R. This car is the first \u201cR-Model\u201d race ready GT350 and Godfather of just 36 GT350-R models ever assembled. Following the R\u2019s SCCA racing success in B\/Production, Ford introduced the numerous street based GT350 Shelby\u2019s of which Shipman\u2019s is a fine tribute example. <\/p>\n

Oh yes, how much did the 1965 GT350-R bring at the Mecum Auction in Kissimmee in 2020? How about $3.85-million! Yes, that\u2019s correct, million. <\/p>\n

Before I get into further explanation of tributes, clones and non-numbers, I would opine that both the Miller\u2019s GTO Judge and Shipman\u2019s Mustang GT350 are worth in the $50,000 to $75,000 range at current collector car popularity values (perhaps more to the right buyer).  <\/p>\n

Now, on to the tribute, clone and \u201cfake\u201d discussion. Car collectors have used all three of these terms, but clone is now not as popular in the collector dictionary and many times replaced by tribute. The word \u201cfake\u201d was the most unpopular for a non-numbers matching car, and used mostly when an owner was trying to pass off his\/her car as \u201coriginal numbers matching\u201d when most of the educated collectors knew better. Through the years, many unscrupulous sellers sold so-called \u201cnumbers matching\u201d vehicles to unaware buyers to the dismay of the new owner. However, now that the hobby has evolved and everyone seems more educated, the \u201cfakes\u201d are now easily uncovered. <\/p>\n

\"Cars<\/a>

The author\u2019s 1972 Dodge Challenger is not original, nor is it a clone. Challenger dropped the R\/T trim and big block 383, 440 and Hemi engines in 1972 and Greg\u2019s car is built as a tribute R\/T, including a 440-V8 TNT engine from a Chrysler model back in 1969. Dodge called the 440 a Magnum, while Plymouth dubbed the high-performance 440 engine a Super Commando. (Greg Zyla photo)<\/p><\/div>\n

To explain what a tribute is I have a 1972 Dodge Challenger R\/T \u201ctribute,\u201d powered by a high performance, 440 (plus .40) TNT engine that came out of a 1969 Chrysler. Considering the big-block engine was not available in 1972 in the Challenger line, nor was an R\/T model, most everyone I run into knows this is a \u201ctribute\u201d car. So let\u2019s just say a tribute can be any car that is not original and does not have correct year parts.<\/p>\n

In my opinion (which I again stress), this is where a clone is different from a tribute. In my dictionary a \u201cclone\u201d is a car that is correctly representative of the year it was produced, but does not have the original engine \/ transmission and a few other ancillary parts. So, if someone has a 1967 Dodge Coronet and then puts a 426 Hemi engine in it, adds R\/T badges, hood and rear treatment, exhausts, etc., with a 4-speed and Dana 60 rear or a Torqueflite with an 8 3\/4 rear, then this would be a nice R\/T clone because you could go into a dealer back in 1967 and order one just like it. So, I\u2019m still a fan of the word clone because it represents a car that was available in whatever year and sits with the same mechanicals as a numbers matching R\/T. To me, both the Miller GTO (although almost a clone) and the Shipman GT350 are tributes.<\/p>\n

Now, I mention the vehicle Identification Number (VIN) plate because this is also very important. When you see what looks like a totally junk car being sold for $15,000, it\u2019s because the VIN designates it as a real, rare muscle car, unlike the above-mentioned 1967 Dodge R\/T Hemi clone example. Whoever buys it can put it back together in original form, with a numbers matching replacement Hemi engine from 1967 and a correct transmission that relates to 1967. <\/span><\/p>\n

\"Cars<\/a>

Photos of the engines in the three featured tribute collector cars. (Shipman and Zyla Photos)<\/p><\/div>\n

When completely finished, the new owner can advertise the car as a real \u201967 R\/T with correct VIN and use of 1967 parts. The seller explains to the new owner it is a correct year engine, but not the one that originally came in the car. So can you call it numbers matching? Some say yes, others no, but the car is worth quite a bit more on the market regardless, thanks to the VIN. (Popular now is the word \u201ccorrect\u201d in regards to engine \/ transmission.)<\/p>\n

I know this is all a bit confusing, but the hobby pretty much identifies and investigate cars that fall into these categories with proper money values attached to fake, tribute, clone, correct, and numbers matching efforts. To assist, there are many professional appraisers that can tell you quickly (for a fee) exactly what you are looking at. To me, an original numbers matching car is the ultimate, but right now I\u2019m happy to own a \u201972 Challenger R\/T tribute. Remember, too, that clone is also used by many pros as the same nomenclature as tribute, but I disagree. My \u201972 Challenger is in no way original, that\u2019s why I call it a tribute and not a clone. I basically built the car to be what I feel a \u201972 Challenger R\/T would have been like.<\/p>\n

In ending, be it tribute, numbers matching or clone, the hobby is so much fun nowadays, regardless of proper names. I expect it to be even stronger as the years go by.<\/p>\n

Thanks for your letter Kevin. <\/p>\n

(Greg Zyla is a syndicated auto columnist who welcomes reader input on collector cars, auto nostalgia and motorsports at greg@gregzyla.com<\/a>).<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Q: Hi Greg and I\u2019m wondering if you could explain further about an article you wrote back five years ago about your friend\u2019s Pontiac GTO…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":5,"featured_media":87563,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"ngg_post_thumbnail":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-87562","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-editorial"],"yoast_head":"\nCars We Remember; A $3.85-million Mustang GT350-R and tributes, clones and \u2018fakes\u2019 explained - Owego Pennysaver Press<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Cars We Remember; A $3.85-million Mustang GT350-R and tributes, clones and \u2018fakes\u2019 explained - Owego Pennysaver Press\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Q: Hi Greg and I\u2019m wondering if you could explain further about an article you wrote back five years ago about your friend\u2019s Pontiac GTO...\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Owego Pennysaver Press\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:publisher\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/The-Owego-Pennysaver-49179420591\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2021-11-20T14:59:05+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/www.greenstreetdata.com\/PS\/owego\/files\/2021\/11\/Car_Collector1-2.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"1125\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"897\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"psadvert\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"psadvert\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"7 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/\",\"url\":\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/\",\"name\":\"Cars We Remember; A $3.85-million Mustang GT350-R and tributes, clones and \u2018fakes\u2019 explained - Owego Pennysaver Press\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"http:\/\/www.greenstreetdata.com\/PS\/owego\/files\/2021\/11\/Car_Collector1-2.jpg\",\"datePublished\":\"2021-11-20T14:59:05+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/#\/schema\/person\/e03684194434956dfb61f5ffcbc19492\"},\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.owegopennysaver.com\/PS\/2021\/11\/20\/cars-we-remember-a-3-85-million-mustang-gt350-r-and-tributes-clones-and-fakes-explained\/#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"http:\/\/www.greenstreetdata.com\/PS\/owego\/files\/2021\/11\/Car_Collector1-2.jpg\",\"contentUrl\":\"http:\/\/www.greenstreetdata.com\/PS\/owego\/files\/2021\/11\/Car_Collector1-2.jpg\",\"width\":1125,\"height\":897,\"caption\":\"Ford introduced the fastback Mustang GT in 1965. 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